• Stephen C Hyatt

    2 Driver Cars at the RXNC and National Challenge Events

    The RXB and RXNC Committee has seen over the last few years the difference the slotting of the 2nd driver can be in changing course condition. It is especially important when money and championships are on the line.

    We want to start a discussion and the purpose of gathering solutions on the forum.

    We will trim down the suggestions to 2 or 3 and put it on a poll. The winning suggestion will be written into the national supp's

     

    Stephen Hyatt,

    RXB Chairman

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    • Brent L Blakely

      Mark, as long as the Saturday afternoon run order grid sheet is derived from the Saturday mornings Master Run log from the first run, then I agree the run order can be ensured.   It doesn't need any special markings on the 2 driver cars to ensure this, but it can't hurt.

      As to Charles recent post quoting the rxb minutes, the draw isn't where the problem stems from.  The problem is getting the reverse order of the Saturday morning "actual drivers" correct.  This continues from when Charles brought this up from Tulsa RX Nats.

      To try to improve the morning portion would be to try to keep 2nd drivers running with their class. Simple solution is to do 2nd driver changes on the way to start line, not in grid.

      So to repeat, my suggestion from having experienced the problem of correct driver order for Saturday afternoon that continues to need correcting, to use the MAster run log that is generated for every run group, the solution is literally right in front of the people who work in the timing trailer.  I know, because I've enjoyed working with Sandy and Brian in the T & S trailer and saw the solution myself.  All I hope is that for every run group that has 2 driver cars, is that whoever is the last driver for any given class on Saturday morning, is the first one on the Sautrday afternoon course for their given class.

      Brent

    • Brent L Blakely

      Thanks for the  reply Mark. I did see the impact of the grid marking at Indianola, but it was insignifcant in the scope of things. Returning to the cone markers will keep order in the grid, but this and reversing cars in grid between morning and afternoon on Saturday alone won't be enough. Thinking through your reply made me realize that the solution is a two part concept, 2 sheets, one for car location in grid and another for driver order based on draw for morning runs and reverse of master run log from actual first runs, because ever since Charles brought this to my attention in Tulsa, "we" are still not having the last drivers in any given group go first in sat. afternoon runs. Maybe it did happen in prep or stock at Indianola, but I saw it firsthand in Mod. So this is good to have you reply here with intent to fix some of the last major factors of rx. Now I can't wait for 120+ nats and the problems that will bring. 

      Brent

    • Mark Macoubrie

      I agree the master sheet needs to be give to the Chief of Grid and the run group expeditors.  In 2015 one of the issues was the grid marking.  In 2014 there were cones with grid space marking to make the grid marking very clear.  Additionally they had the compeitiors swap grid stalls from morning to afternoon.  In 2015 the grid markers were not in place and we did not have the competitors move.  Instead they ran the groups in the reverse direction which cause some confusion with the two driver cars.  I am recommending the return of grid stall cones and swapping of spaces to the RXNC-PC.  Between these two items, it should improve the issues felt in the Grid in 2015.

       

      Mark

    • Charles Wright

      In the March 2016 Fastrack the following was published from the January RXB meeting:

      1.d.  "Run-order draw — The RXB discussed options to improve on the run-order draw. One option could include using a random generator. A poll of the membership was suggested. The RXB agreed to have two-driver cars draw first with second driver positioned halfway into the class grid, with a 2-minute limit during the event to change drivers."

      I think this is saying that two-driver cars will be going first followed by the the 2nd driver halfway down the grid.

      A couple of questions:

      1.  Which driver of the two-driver cars is going to go first?

      2.  If the run group is small, halfway down the grid may not be possible.

      3.  How are we going to ensure that the run order will be exactly reversed?

       

    • Mark Macoubrie

      1. First to pick will be the primary driver (2 digit number).

      2. Half way is always possible.  There just may not be many spaces between the drivers.  A two minute switch will be allowed for drivers when they are close in the run order.

      3. Run order will be ensured with correct gid sheets and additional markings on two driver cars.

       

      Mark

    • Charles Wright

      So does the draw by the XX driver determine whether the XX or the 1XX driver goes first in the first run session?

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    • Brent L Blakely

      I feel the program is close to getting the run order as good as it can be.  Currently, though, there is a problem with implementing the afternoon runs and reversing the order of drivers.  Easiest way to explain is by real example.  As was stated for one class with 2 cars and 4 drivers, you can only do so much. 

      The class I competed in this year had 12 drivers and 8 cars.  I drew last driver for start of competition for Saturday morning.  So my car was the last car in grid for MF.  When the grid person sent me to the start line I was followed by second drivers who were supposed to go before me.  It can be hard to follow this part everytime in every situation.  Where the actual problem came in was for the afternoon runs.  While I went first in the afternoon runs, I shouldn't have, remembering that there were second drivers who went after me in the morning run session. 

      Since I had the benefit of working timing and scoring, I was able to verify that the solution lay before me with the master run logs. 

      Solution: use the first "Master Run Log" sheet to determine driver order for Saturday afternoon, not just reverse of the cars gridded.  Using the MRL sheet gives the grid people the order to follow so that the actual last driver in a given class goes first starting afternoon runs.

      Specifically, I know this same problem happened in Tulsa in 2013, but until it is resolved, it will always happen.

      Lastly, I also believe the random draw is the closest thing to making the class draw fun and fair with no weird "magic" from the random draws of the past.  We do need to improve the way that it is done to save some time.  Everyone sitting around for every single competitor is long and drawn out, no pun intended.    

       

      Brent Blakely

       

       

    • Charles Wright

      How about seeding entrants based upon the previous years RXNC results?  New entrants to the class draw for their position either before or after the previous year entrants.

    • Jayson Woodruff

      So what's our current method?  Session1: All first drivers draw, second drivers get put behind in draw order. Session 2: Flip.  Session 3: Grid first to worst while squeezing 2 driver in as fast as you can.

      I think the above is a pretty good compromise of fair and efficient, even for a naitonal event.  2 car drivers might see advantages or disadvantages in this set up, but you can't really predict/game that and the flipping sure helps.

      You could modifiy the 3rd session to go first to worse including waiting on second drivers to stay in order.  This would only slow down that one session (and the Sunday session isn't as stressed for time).

       

      While we're here, get rid of the "Draw", just make it a randomization not requireing a competitior gathering.

      Jay W

    • Mark Macoubrie

      I actually like the random draw and I think it adds a little to the Friday night events.

       

    • Charles Wright

      I like the random draw as well.

    • Charles Wright

      I created a hypothetical chart.  Maybe you can read it and follow it.  Basically I wanted to create something that would keep the class together and would be reversible.  Sunday can be difficult when you have two fast drivers like Gonzo and Karl sharing the same car. 

      Click on the image to make it full size.

    • Charles Wright

      It's important to remember that all this works assuming that the 2nd course is a new course and not simply a reversal of the 1st course.  You want to give the 1st driver the same advantage/disadvantage as the last driver of the class.

    • Mark Macoubrie

      My suggestion is as follows. 

      Count the total number of competitors in the class.  For a two driver car, one of the drivers will draw for position.  The second person of the two driver car is spaced half the total number of competitors apart allowing maximum time between drivers.  The two driver car drivers will draw first.  Example scenario:  There are 10 cars in the class and two (2 driver) cars.  The first two car driver draws a 7 so the second driver of that car will be placed in the 2nd spot.  The second two car driver draws a 3 so the second driver of that car will be placed in 8th.  All single driver cars will draw for the remaining spots.  If the total number of competitors is greater than 8 they all run class together.  If the total number of competitors is less than 8 the drivers are give a maximum of 3 minutes to change drivers and get back in line.

       

      The concept being the drivers will have a maximum amount of time to swap and also run the entire class together reducing the possibility the course changes giving a competitor a distinct advantage.

    • Mark Macoubrie

      Under suggestions for the 2016 RallyCross National Championship this points was also being discussed.  Charle Wright wrote the following

      "I think we still need to work on run order.  It's getting better but it is not fixed yet.  When course conditions change and there is signicant time drops between runs, keeping the class together and in order is extremely important.  I've sent in my suggestion to the RXB but basically I'm suggesting that the 2 driver cars go first in class in whatever their draw is followed by the rest of the class and 2nd drivers."

      My (Mark Macoubrie) comments on the statement Charles made

      "What would you recommend for situation like we had in SR in 2015.  We had four drivers and two cars.  Would you still try to work them in as quickly as possible between the other classes or would you delay running cars for them to make the swap?"

      Charles Wrights response to my questions

      "Not much you can do with a 4 driver class but it works the same.  Whomever draws the lowest number goes first in class.  The lower draw of the 2nd car driver goes second.  After the first drivers make their runs, they filter into the running order of whatever is running.  Give them X number of  minutes to make the driver swap.  I'm thinking as little as 3 minutes.